Sofia Orr is likely to become the first woman since then to be jailed for refusing military service, but believes it is ‘wrong to take children and make them into soldiers’
And she’s right.
Wow straight to jail with her!
Any government/country is actually just a kind of service (you pay taxes and get different goods from it). Every person should have the right to choose the provider of this service (change the country) or completely refrain from it. It means that mandatory military service is no less than slavery. People are not guilty for being born in a country they don’t want to fight for (or that they don’t want to fight at all)
I think you are on the right track with your ideals of the world, but I also guess you kinda know that this is not how states operate. Of course there are different types of states, but if you think of democracies, they are also not service providers to their citizens. On the contrary. Democratic states are the abstraction of all the private interests of their citizens. This is what they protect and advance. What arises out of that is that occasionally these interests will suggest a war is what the nation desires.
I do not believe in “nation’s interest”. That’s the thing that made USA an aggressive state. It also means that the minorities’ opinions are completely rejected. And yk politicians often like to do what people didn’t ask them to do. Democracy is good but the right of choosing the country and freely leaving one must always be there
yes, I also don‘t believe in the nation‘s interest, yet it somehow pretty brutally exists. Something‘s got to grow, somethings got to give.
This is why promoting peace and good ideas is important. If the society is informed, it can change the situation
At first you got to have a good analysis of how society and the economy works. Unfortunately this already is a tricky thing, because not everybody agrees.
Of course not everybody agrees. And we shouldn’t force them to agree. But it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to make the world better for everyone. Ik it sounds naive but I’m just getting into all of this. Now I’m not an expert at all. I think you get the main idea. I’m not capable of detailing it very much yet
I think the point they are trying to hint at is that it makes sense to try and understand the emergent forces that culminate in events as horrific as war.
You may “not believe in national interests” but something closely resembling that is a force governing social behavior.
So while it is important to pass moral judgements on these phenomena, you will be more effective at doing so if you can abstractly evaluate them absent moral judgement. Just as you couldn’t coherently understand an ecology if you cannot accept obligate predators as a concept because of the moral implications of predation.
We will all differ in our moral and strategic assessments, but we all cohabit the same world, in which we can all recognize common truths arising from nature.
What arises out of that is that occasionally these interests will suggest a war is what the nation desires.
I think its pretty wrong to suggest wars happen as a bottom up democratic, abstracted process rather than by the upper class imposing it on us.
Democratic states are the abstraction of all the private interests of their citizens.
I am not sure what this means, can you clarify a bit?
A democratic state allows its citizens to pursue their private interests. This is only possible though if this is happening in a legal framework, so that the private interests of one citizen don‘t infringe upon the ones of another. The outcome of this consideration then is the abstraction (the specific applied to the universal) of the free will of the citizens. We call it freedom and justice. Others call it the free market.
I see thx
You largely can choose the provider of this service, but they will also choose you (or not).
And you can not refrain from the service while being in the community of those that don’t refrain. In practice there are (nearly) no places where the community as a whole chooses to refrain.If you’re in a country with compulsory military service, make yourself interesting for other countries and leave.
You largely can choose the provider of this service,
Really? I’m from the Middle East, took me fucking ages to “change the provider”.
If you’re in a country with compulsory military service, make yourself interesting for other countries and leave.
Literally not an option for 99% of people.
Yes, most people are not interesting. True for Emi/Imi-gration as well as dating. And in both cases it’s tough to hear.
… so this isn’t really a viable solution.
that‘s a bunch of false equivalences
Well then one largely can’t choose, can one.
unless you’re a US citizen which requires the extra step of completely renouncing your US citizenship or continue paying US taxes (and therefore supporting the military mostly lol) regardless of where you may live in the world
It’s complicated, but not necessarily. The US has a lot of agreements with other countries for you to avoid having to pay taxes for both countries. If you’re living in a country with one of those agreements, you can file with the US to claim you’ve paid taxes to the foreign government.
And the US doesn’t force you to renounce your citizenship, it’s generally other countries that don’t allow dual citizenship; Germany and Denmark for example don’t allow it.
is there something you can point me to that confirms this? i’m not saying you’re wrong but my quick google search said the opposite.
I was wrong about Denmark citizenship, but look here for an explanation of the tax treaties and the FEIE.
And the US doesn’t force you to renounce your citizenship
It does if you don’t want to continue paying US taxes no matter where you live and work.
other countries that don’t allow dual citizenship; Germany and Denmark for example don’t allow it.
I don’t know about Germany, but that hasn’t been true of Denmark for nearly a decade.
I get the feeling that your source is located somewhere between your spine and the backs of your thighs.
I was wrong about Denmark. I did some research last year and apparently what I found was wrong.
But the US has Tax treaties, the FEIE, and the Foreign Tax Credit programs for expats to avoid paying US tax when overseas. But you still need to file with the US.
See here:
Thanks for the clarification!
The current situation is not the best in my opinion. I think people who don’t agree with it (like me) should try to change it if possible (peaceful ways are always preferred) instead of adapting to the situation. Though everyone has the right not to fight and not to do anything at all. I’m not saying that fighting the regime you don’t like is mandatory
Eh… Close, but they are also a concentration social power (and fundamentally deferred violence), and rights only really exist in the context of social power. You can try and establish your own personal sovereignty but you can be sure that any state that cares to will test that. Sometimes the most you can do is accept that it is able to imprison you or go down fighting, and if you are committed to pacifism the latter is a harder option.
Fighting is the last option. It’s needed when a state becomes usurpated and (unpopular opinion) when the current situation creates an objective high risk for the society or its part and waiting for the election is not really an option (such risk can be exhibited as genocide, severe discrimination or just as creation of a good environment for spreading aggressive ideas. All are dangerous). I think the best thing to do in a democratic society is trying to promote ideas which you think are right so people who agree can join you and you all can have a bigger influence on elections and people who aren’t sure about their views can also find yours appealing. Leave the enforcement part for people who really know what they’re doing and who you’re sure are doing it for the higher good
No don’t like this. Countries aren’t corporations. Last time we tried that it was called fascism.
Idk much about fascism but I don’t think my views are close to it. Afaik it relies on patriotism and nationalities and similar kind of stuff. I don’t believe in any of that. But I do believe that my English is not the best so it can be easy to misunderstand what I say
Fascism is the merging of the corporation and the state. Ignore the bullshit redefinition the US pulled out of their ass so that it wouldn’t apply to themselves. Kind of like how liberalism was redefined from class collaboration (what fascism is about) to being about progressivism.
Corporations should never control any states. It is what an evil corporation is. What I meant is that ultimately a government is a service because it has basically the same idea and that it must never force anyone to obey it. Laws can and should exist (it’s one of the important government’s services after all) but military service is a different thing
You’re either for a country or you’re not. It’s really that simple.
It’s not, mister. It’s really not. People like you make this world more aggressive. I’m not trying to fight you though. And I don’t have the energy or even the knowledge to explain. Nothing is simple. Hopefully at some point you will understand it. Though it probably would be nice to have this world simplified a little ngl
Must be so easy to be on the side of evil these days. You don’t even need to do anything and you win.
KEEP IT UP!
The Israeli prison system is already overflowing because of the war. Make it flow over even worse.
As of last week, the number of prisoners in Israeli jails numbered some 19,372, an increase of over 3,000 since October and significantly more than the maximum prison population of 14,500 mandated by law.
(I’m quoting Times of Israel but I don’t want to link them in any form, you can find that if you want to.)
Here’s another figured from them
Amid the war in the Gaza Strip, the IDF has called up a total of 287,000 reservists
The total prison capacity is 14.500, and it’s already overflowing.
Even if every 50th IDF reservist or conscript refuses to go, it’s still 6000 people more for them to deal with. If every tenth conscript/reservist refused, it’d be twice the total prison capacity on top of the already problematically overflowing prisons.
Swamp the system.
So even a tiny majority refusing to go and instead choosing prison over participating in genocide can have a huge impact, indirectly.
I think refusers go to military prison, not regular prison.
Well at least here in Finland, where we also have conscription, you go to a normal prison and serve six months (or at least it used to be 6months, the same as the shortest conscription time). And I’d like to note that there are several options for conscription. Full military service, unarmed military service (you serve in the military but don’t have to touch weapons, you’ll be a backline logistics guy or some such) and civil service, which is a bit longer, but you never serve in the military (essentially you work in an old people’s home or something for 13 months).
For one, we don’t have a “military prison”, as that’s an actual prison operated by the military. Israel does have them though. Or one with several detention centers.
Secondly, because when conscripts refuse conscription, they’re still civilians, as they’ve not been conscripted.
This one was about a reservist, so it’s probably different.
However, going by the stats on…
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_military_prison
… I think the numbers might’ve been in the figures I mentioned (compare the occupancy numbers) and because a lot of the prisoners were prisoners of war, who go to these military prisons.
My point is that while a majority opposition to the war seems unlikely, getting 1/10th, 1/20th, or even 1/50th (=2%) of people refusing like the brave woman in the article, there’d be massive issues for the Israeli prison system.
They already started trying to lift regulations of the conditions in the prisons, so they could shove them even fuller.
Well I’ll forgo my dislike of linking this bullshit “news source”, so we can all be on the same page, more or less… No pun intended.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/jails-running-out-of-room-due-to-war-prison-service-warns/
Eighty-four percent of those classified as security prisoners are currently living in an area of under three square meters in size, less than the legal limit, and 3,000 prisoners are now sleeping on mattresses on the floor rather than in beds.
This situation is potentially dangerous and “my biggest fear is that we will lose control over the prisoners in the prisons,” committee chairman MK Zvika Fogel (Otzma Yehudit) warned
They fear the exact problem I’m proposing would be easy-ish to exacerbate.
Last month [Nov -23], in the wake of Hamas’s devastating assault on southern Israel, lawmakers passed a bill allowing the government to declare an “incarceration emergency,” paving the way for the temporary lifting of restrictions on housing conditions for prisoners.
And another article from December:
##Knesset extends Israel’s ‘incarceration emergency’ as prisons near capacity
According to the Israel Prison Service, 19,756 people are currently held in Israeli jails and ‘within a week or two, we will reach the maximum capacity for prisoners’
They mention the max capacity as 20,000.
And these must be military prisons as well, since I don’t think POW’s or “security prisoners” would be held in normal prisons.
He added that some 88% of Palestinian prisoners held for terror offenses — commonly known as security prisoners, are living in spaces of “less than three square meters per prisoner.”
Some genocidal right-wing zionist maniac then went on to say how these conditions are “a summer camp” and how “Hamas killers must be kept in the lowest conditions the law allows”.
And this is following a security prisoner getting a beat to death.
Anyway thanks for coming to my TED-rant.
Well at least here in Finland, where we also have conscription, you go to a normal prison and serve six months (or at least it used to be 6months, the same as the shortest conscription time).
That hasn’t been the case for ages in Finland. These days you get 6 months of “house arrest” if you refuse conscription. Electronic tagging that is. You are allowed to leave your house to go to the grocery store, to work or to study etc at predetermined and agreed upon times.
Oh man. Totaalikieltäytyminen is so easy nowadays, god damn.
I served II/09 so it’s been a while.
Thanks for the info. Guess the mad bastards managed it then, because I did hang around totari people as well, and that’s where I actually learned this idea. Because he had counted prison capacity in Finland and it was something like 1-3% of every batch who would need to say “nope” and they just wouldn’t fit into prison anymore.
I really would like to know the details of when this was on the board being discussed.
First good news I’ve heard today, ty man.
Totaalikieltäytyminen
total refusal. gnarly.
I get that conscription is bad; Finland doesn’t (to my knowledge) have a history of feeding conscripts into wars. Do you mind discussing why you avoided it? just curious. I joined the mil to pay for edu, which is one of the primary intake paths for US soldiers. Always looked at it as a gamble but it mostly paid off for me, except hearing loss lol.
edit: derp, you served. doh - uh, the people you hung out with? what were their feelings I guess
I didn’t?
Also, that is the direct translation, yes, but a more accurate (context wise) would be conscientious objector.
I’m a supply core NCO in the reserves, served 362 days. I went in the second batch of 2009. That’s why I said “I served II/09”
I don’t think conscription is bad at all. It was one of the best years of my life.
Especially because ours is very much flexible and has options like unarmed service or civil service. (And with Russia neighbouring us with a long border, a conscription army is needed.) The only thing is that currently it only applies to males (and you can be excused for several reasons, like being a Jehova’s witness). It’s flexible when you do your conscription as well. Many people go to uni before the army. Not most, but many. And if you’re for instance a competitor in a sport on a high level, you’ll can get lots of free days from the time you serve. Some people like Kimi Räikkönen or Jarkko Nieminen for instance did “serve” their conscription, but in reality it was them going in for a few days/weeks every now and then when they had the time.
I would’ve never joined the American military, had I been American.
I believe in defending my country, not attacking others.
For me, I also served my full time in the Finnish army because I was a coward. Back then, in the year 2000, they still put you in actual prison. (Well, minimum security one where convicts are allowed to work and study outside the facility on weekdays, but still prison). But even bigger deterrent than that was the lie that future employer would not hire you if you did not go through military service. That was a complete lie, it is actually illegal for them to ask about your service, and I haven’t included my military service record voluntarily either in my CV since the early 2000s and nobody has cared. And there is also a law which dictates that if you are sentenced as conscientious objector (“totaalikieltäytyminen”), that does not go to your criminal record, so that stays clean as well.
But why I was contemplating refusing military service, and civilian service too, was and is completely ideological. I do wish to protect and fight for the good things in this country (democracy, civil liberties, equality) against outside invader (which would obviously be Russia, and they have none of those things), but the fact that conscription is forced labour without pay just doesn’t fit right with me. It’s basically slavery, and that should be opposed, always, everywhere.
forced labour without pay
whoa that’s a new one for me. our conscripts still got paid when drafted, even if it was very little for the danger faced. No pay at all!?
appreciate the insights! thanks
Which aren’t equipped to handle a significant enough mass influx of people refusing to participate in a genocide either.
We gotta admit that a large portion of the IDF are just a bunch of indoctrinated teens who had no choice. They are victims of Israel too.
I’m surprised she’s the first woman to be jailed for this… really thought this was more common than that. I would totally do months of even a couple of years of prison or whatever just so not to kill X number of civilian men, women, and children on Gaza… simply because that’s not something I’d be able to live with.
You are leaving out the indoctrination. If you truly despise the enemy and believe you are divinely entitled to do as you please, that helps a lot in not feeling guilt about it.
Edit: I don’t mean he doesn’t realize they are being indoctrinated, he leaves it out of his empathizing if put in that position.
just a bunch of indoctrinated teens
But yes, I absolutely agree.
See the edit
Ah, I understand.
You’re right, choosing prison over killing innocent civilians requires first understanding what is going on, something which indoctrination is meant to hinder. I think what I meant to say is that it’s weird not more people have been able to escape this indoctrination and choose prison instead of service. Then again, Israel has been successful at this genocide thanks to their incredible propaganda machine, so I shouldn’t underestimate the effect it has on people.
Agreed, i just think it is very difficult for us comparatively free thinking westerners with access to largely uncensored information and freedom of thought, looking at the situation from the outside. I think we often can’t really empathize with how pervasive a concerted propaganda effort like that must be, being literally raised on the kool-aid.
Which isn’t to say we are not indoctrinated ourselves, perhaps more low key
us comparatively free thinking westerners
For myself, I grew up with the Islam kool-aid in the Middle East in an Islam-majority country and though the journey was troublesome, I very much managed in the end to shed religion and tradition off my shoulders and unlearn all the crap I was indoctrinated to believe in, including layers of anti-semitism. I felt like I lived in a similar kind of propaganda machine and managed to find my way out. If I can do it, hopefully, anyone can do it given the right opportunities, support, and time.
It’s literally his first sentence…
See edit
He acknowledged they’re victims. Really don’t understand the point you’re trying to make here.
That they can’t know what their thought process would be like, without having been raised in such indoctrination. I think we all wish we’d do the right thing, but statistically few do. Propaganda is not the only explanation, but it’s a pretty good one.
I see what you’re going for but you wouldn’t have that prospective if you’ve seen even a fraction of what the IDF has been putting out.
They’re in on the evil, and they revel in it.
There’s probably more people not taking it but they don’t want the public to know
You might be right. I found this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omer_Goldman
She has actual courage. Just simply doing what you’re told without question makes you as weak as the rest.
Based. Maybe she can get political asylum from Fascism.
Refusing to be complicit in Genocide? Believe it or not, Jail.
I mean there are good arguments both for and against compulsory military service, but only in countries that aren’t prosecuting a war of genocide. Israel can go get fucked and so can America for propping it up. In fact it’s more proper to lay the blame at America’s feet than even Israels, since they’ve been “the adult in the room” (the one with the guns) who has been enabling it.
I mean there are good arguments both for and against compulsory military service
Are there good arguments for it? If it’s compulsory, maybe you need to run your country differently so people feel its worth voluntarily defending. And/Or you can recruit heavily in areas where folks are disadvantaged and have few options, dangling education in front of them in exchange for being willing to kill or die for you.
The funny thing about knowing 18 year olds at 50+ vs being 18 years old is you can see the children these kids still are. Allowing them to join? OK. Forcing them to murder for you? As a veteran who joined at 19, no.
Or you can recruit heavily in areas where folks are disadvantaged and have few options, dangling education in front of them in exchange for being willing to kill or die for you.
This is absolutely what we do in the U.S. and it’s abhorrent.
I guess what I want is for nobody to be so desperate for their basic needs that they feel compelled to kill and die in war.
And if we had a country that cared for all of its citizens and didn’t start wars of aggression, maybe more people would want to enlist as they have real values to protect and have a reasonable expectation that they won’t be committing atrocities?
Honestly not a criticism of you or your comment. Lot’s of people are advocating for the same thing; You just said it plainly.
…Anyway, this is all terrible and we absolutely can do better, starting with building community locally, mutual aid, protesting, and listening to marginalized and oppressed people’s.
This is absolutely what we do in the U.S. and it’s abhorrent.
I’m definitely aware and agree with all your points.
Honestly not a criticism of you or your comment. Lot’s of people are advocating for the same thing; You just said it plainly.
No worries, I did it somewhat sardonically. I don’t like that arrangement much more than compulsion. These are people we don’t trust to drink responsibly for three more years, but we tell ourselves it’s fair to expect them to make a mature, rational decision to sign their lives away for a period of time (or forever) with no life experience whatsoever.
What about the argument that it gets more buy-in and attention from the public? That if everyone has to participate, then the public will care more and hold the military more accountable? I agree that forcing people to serve a genocidal military is wrong, though. And maybe compulsory military service doesn’t hold the military accountable (see Israel). Or maybe that is further proof that the Israeli population supports the IOF
There’s some gray - but most of it is predicated (I think) on some version of “there’s no other way” to defend the nation. I’m just less convinced now that I’m older that this is a true statement - but I don’t claim to have the answers. Any alternative approach would likely require a serious paradigm shift, and I don’t personally see that as likely without something catastrophic preceding such a shift.
My position is primarily that I’m unwilling to ever say that it’s a good idea to take an 18 year old, force them to join the military, and expect them to kill. We’ve got laws that make it clear we don’t trust them with alcohol so it seems cruel and unfair to take someone who likely has next to zero life experience past high school, and then force them into your military.
I agree. It just depends on if you can have a “good” standing military or not. If that is possible—to have a peaceful standing military dedicated to self defense that spends the rest of its time idk helping people or providing labor or something—I’d be cool with it. But sending teenagers across the world to shoot poor brown people is obviously loathsome .
Conscription against the nazis invading the USSR in a war of extermination
Ok, but barring corner cases…
Edit - and arguably it’s still not a “good” idea - that’s something you do because you feel there’s no other choice at that point. It solves the short term problem, doesn’t strike me as healthy for the populace in a long term way.
It is healthy for the populace in the sense that only 26 million people die instead of the vast majority of a population of 150 million, which would have happened without conscription.
It is justified when the war is an existential threat to the people of an area, not of the state ruling the area.
I don’t disagree at all, just saying it’s not a way to keep your standing army populated that I can agree with. I don’t think this is at odds with your clarification, but if I’m missing your point please don’t hesitate to reel me in.
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I think it works well in Switzerland.
When the world is run by criminals, being lawful is made a crime.
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It’s also by definition slavery.
“Oh you’re born <a something>? Go do this!”
thetimes are a murdock owned news network.
Even a broken clock is right at least once a day.
Or said plainly: while you can’t depend on any Murdoch publication to get it right all or even most of the time, you can’t depend on it getting it wrong every time either. Though The Sun is very close to achieving the latter.
Paywall. There are deferments you can get so you don’t have to fight. What’s the full story here?
Concientious objectors are jailed in Israel. This isn’t anything new, see here for another case https://www.amnesty.org.uk/urgent-actions/conscientious-objector-detained-israel
Conscientious objectors are not jailed.
Anyone can just do community service roles instead of the military. Sounds like only people who completely refuse to help out at all are punished.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherut_Leumi
Sherut Leumi (Hebrew: שירות לאומי, lit. ‘National Service’) is an alternative voluntary form of national service in Israel, as opposed to the mandatory military conscription prevalent in the country. It is designed for individuals who do not meet the eligibility criteria for service in the Israel Defense Forces, or who hold conscientious objections to military enlistment. The program primarily was created for religious Jewish girls aged 17 to 24, although it is open to all applicants who cite diverse grounds for their decision.
The majority work in schools, but can also work in places such as special education, administration, hospitals,[3] law, geriatrics, nursing homes, health clinics, teens at risk, internal security, disadvantaged communities, immigrant assistance, and many other organizations. Acceptance is based on an interview via a placement organizations that try to find the youth appropriate skills, interests, and needs.
Although the Israeli army’s Conscience Committee can decide to allow exemption from military service, this is usually granted only to those conscientious objectors who refuse to serve on religious grounds. However, according to the UN Human Rights Committee, no discrimination is permitted “among conscientious objectors on the basis of the nature of their particular beliefs” - i.e. whether they are religious or otherwise. Even though Israeli law does allow for exemption on grounds of pacifism, the army’s Conscience Committee frequently rejects pacifists’ cases. The authorities deny objectors the possibility of performing alternative civilian service. Conscientious objectors in Israel can be convicted of and imprisoned for the same “offence” repeatedly. In 2003, the UN Working Group on Arbitrary Detention said that this practice flouts the rights of conscientious objectors under international human rights standards which prohibit “double jeopardy”.
Your point was already refuted in the article from amnesty I linked.
Hasn’t it always been young people who make the bulk of the armies?
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Sorry. Choose your governments carefully.
Well, she’s certainly part of a minority. The majority of the political parties in Israel are extremely right-wing, not much choice there.
I’d be happier probably dying for a cause I hate fir a couple of years rather than rotting in a military prison for the rest of eternity.
Yeah and killing other people? Sure thing buddy.
