I wonder if this is an US/the rest thing or maybe a meat eater / vegetarian thing. For exact scientific evaluation, please tell in which groups you fit in when commenting.
When the topic food is brought up here or there is always this guy saying “omg you can’t leave your food for 30 minutes on the counter because bacteria you know” (exaggerated) and I don’t get where that sentiment comes from. Many people agree and say you will get food poisoning from that.
First of all, let me tell you I am not an idiot (at least I hope so) and I know how microbiology works - bacteria is everywhere. I don’t doubt your food on the counter will get populated by bacteria, probably more than it would be in the fridge. The question is, is this bad for you?
Now, where I live (central Europe) people are not so fast with that and I wonder why this is. We have a temperate climate which could play a role, so a large portion of the year the temperature is pretty moderate, compared to let’s say south US. But apart from that I don’t really know.
I am a vegetarian, mostly vegan. I am pretty sure it’s not a good idea to leave animal parts out of the fridge, as they are already populated with bad bacteria when you buy them. But for vegetables? Pasta, soup, lasagna? To be honest, I have no shame to leave that stuff on the counter the whole day and even take a spoon from time to time without reheating. Over night I put it of course in the fridge, and in summer when we have 35°C it’s also a different thing. But in general I don’t really care. I know I cannot extrapolate on humanity, only because ai never felt bad after doing this. But honestly, am I an idiot? Or are you just a bit sensitive? Do you assume everybody eats meats?
Really interested in your ideas. Don’t forget to tell the region you are coming from and your diet preferences.
Thank you so much my respected lemmings and pie people
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Canadian living in Australia. Omnivore.
Kicker: Food technologist and health inspector. AMA.
Tl;dr: Doesn’t matter if it’s meat or veg. It goes in the fridge. Follow 2h/4h rule. Edit: Should specify certain veg are potentially hazardous as soon as you cut in to them, like leafy greens. All cooked or partially veg that should be treated like meat.
For work, I’m fairly strict in businesses because the food can go anywhere once it’s in the hands on the customer, even in restaurants or at home. You can look at your dine in customers and they all look healthy, but what if they’re not, or where do the leftovers go? Do they take it home after date night to share some with little Bobby or Grandma Jane? In business, you do what you can to keep the food as “clean” as you can.
At home and in food businesses, handwashing is ALWAYS a problem. Food handlers are always touching their faces, phones, hip towel they’ve had on all day, touching a towel they use used to wipe their hands after only rinsing hands in water in the sink, and then touching lettuce for a salad. So even at home, you can cook things to keep bacteria, but is the scoop, container, and your hands clean? Dust, pollen, flies, hairs, etc also carry microbes, and if any of them fall in to food after its been cooked, the bacteria can grow.
It also depends on the type of bacteria, too. Salmonella can infect at an extremely low dose, and Staphylococcus infects at very high doses.
I follow the 2h/4h rule for anything potentially hazardous. Of course, at home, I’m a bit more flexible, usually +/- 1h. If I make myself sick, alright, but there’s no way I’m going to make anyone else sick, so if I’m making food for others, I keep to the strict rules. I’m also generally more risk adverse because the thought of anything involuntary coming out either end makes me sick just thinking about it.
I think the amount of time a food stays out is cultural, and if you grew up with it, your gut will have gotten used to the levels of bacteria. Us westerners generally get sick drinking tap water in certain countries when the locals are fine. I used to live with a Japanese lady for a year, and she knew what I did for a living. She always left rice out all night and ate it the next day. One day, she came to me with it and said “does this smell weird?” and it was a definite yes from me. I’d never leave cooked rice out that long and feel comfortable eating it.
So yeah, Bacillus cereus or whatever bacteria present may not occur all the time, but it does happen. Imagine making large batches and serving to large numbers of unrelated people.
Another thing: Cool foods within 2h to a reasonable temperature (I say 40C is fine) before putting it in the the fridge uncovered. If you put hot food in the fridge, you run the risk of warming up the foods already in the fridge.
Wash your hands.
And use a thermometer. Make sure it’s clean before you use it.
Thanks for listening to my Ted Talk.
What is this 2h/4h rule of which you speak?
Good question!
The 2h/4h rule (also seen written as 2/4h rule, 2-hour/4-hour rule, etc.) is used for two things: cooling potentially hazardous foods, and potentially hazardous foods left out of temperature control.
Cooling: Foods are to be cooled from 60C to 20C within two hours, and from 20C to 4C within the following four hours. Of course most foods are cooked above 60C, which is the range where pathogenic bacteria don’t grow. You want to get food from 60C to 4C within the certain time frame, otherwise it just gives bacteria some good conditions to grow well (food, no other microbes to compete with, etc.). The range of 4C-60C is called the “temperature danger zone.” Foods should stay out of here as much as they can.
Food left out of temperature control is something else that many people are less stringent about, but it is also really important (think summer time bbq season). Potentially hazardous foods can be in and out of the fridge for a cumulative total of two hours (example: you take out a food item and put it back in after 5 minutes, now it has 115 minutes left. Do it again tomorrow, it now has 110 minutes, etc.). After the two hour mark up to four hours, you eat it or throw it out. Once it hits four hours, throw it. Someone used milk as good example. Milk in the fridge door goes off far faster than on a shelf. Foods on the BBQ cooked at noon should be eaten or thrown out by 4PM.
There are lots of other little details and exceptions, but this is what applies in the majority of cases. ;)
Thanks this is very informative especially the part about cumulative time outside the fridge.
For other ppl with Fahrenheit brain: the danger zone I’m aware of is from 40 °F to 140 °F, so 2 hours to cool from 140 to 70 °F, and then down below 40 °F in the following 4 hours.
If you’ve any other questions (this also goes for anyone else), tag me l, respond to this thread, or send me a DM. Happy to provide info on what I know. :)
And thanks for the C -> F conversion!
I have a thermometer with a metal probe. What’s your view on how to correctly clean it?
At home, I just use soap, water and a scrubber. As an additional step, I also either wipe it down with an alcohol wipe if I have any laying around, or let it sit in freshly boiled water. I’m not crazy about doing this for everything except with undercooked or raw poultry.
At work, everyone is required by law to implement a sanitising step to ensure any residual harmful microbes are destroyed… but I’d never deter anyone at home from doing this ;) I suggest properly diluted bleach (100ppm, or as per label instructions, freshly made), or quaternary ammonium compound (“quat”, also diluted to either 200ppm or as per label). Otherwise, dishwasher.
I’ve always wondered why eggs can be unrefrigerated in some countries and be safe to eat for weeks…
This has to do with how the eggs are sanitized before they’re sold. In places where you need to keep them refrigerated, they’ve been washed in such a way that a protective layer has been removed. In countries that keep their eggs on the counter, this has not been done.
Yeah, that’s huge. Outbreaks are becoming more and more common. In Canada and USA, it’s a requirement to keep eggs in the fridge, and we just assume chickens = Salmonella, which is also why there is such stress on washing your hands thoroughly after handling raw chicken, cut chicken on a designated poultry-only cutting board, etc.
I think some countries will do a sanitising wash, some just wash with water.
In Australia, Salmonella infections have been increasing, so it’s strongly recommended to keep eggs refrigerated. It’s not written in to law, but we’re a little behind here on a few things. Also consider the differences in handling of eggs at a supermarket, at a farmer’s market, or someone selling excess eggs outside their home.
Another thing that needs to be considered: Egg shells are porous. In a supermarket, temperatures don’t fluctuate as much as it would at home or in a restaurant, so they’re not going to sweat (moisture = nice spot for bacteria to grow). In restaurants and at home, if they’re not in the fridge, eggs will be subject to sweating (think hot kitchen during the day, cool kitchen at night; flies, cockroaches, rodents, unclean human hands, etc.) I’ve seen eggs being sold out of eskies on the side of the road, and I avoid those. The Aussie sun is HOT.
What is an eskie?
Is that like a cooler?
Yup. Aussie slang, sorry. Eskie = cooler.
40C
How many football fields is that?
Couldn’t tell you, but it would be more in Canadian football fields. ;)
The ignorance in here of how food can go bad is impressive. Refrigerate within one hour. You don’t need to let it cool down before putting it into the refrigerator.
https://www.cdc.gov/food-safety/prevention/index.html
Bacteria can multiply rapidly if left at room temperature or in the “Danger Zone” between 40°F and 140°F. Never leave perishable food out for more than 2 hours (or 1 hour if exposed to temperatures above 90°F).
Refrigerate perishable food (meat, seafood, dairy, cut fruit, some vegetables, and cooked leftovers) within 2 hours. If the food is exposed to temperatures above 90°F, like a hot car or picnic, refrigerate it within 1 hour.
Package warm or hot food into several clean, shallow containers and then refrigerate. It is okay to put small portions of hot food in the refrigerator since they will chill faster.
You don’t need to let it cool down before putting it into the refrigerator.
It really depends on how hot it is, how much there is, and how big the fridge is. Basically just try not to put so much energy in the fridge that other things start to heat up as well; then everything in your fridge is in the ‘danger zone’, or at least uncomfortably close to it. Also saves energy.
Personally I always leave things out to cool off and only put it away quicker if there’s meat in it.
Thanks for your US input, really appreciate it. But think about it, most of the people that already commented live outside the US. It seems your guidelines are pretty heavy, also another US american commented the guidelines are so strict because they need to apply to the whole vast country.
Are we all really ignorant, or is it possible there is also a cultural difference in play?
Bacteria doesn’t care about culture. The guidelines are pretty simple: bacteria generally grows on food within a temp range.
It’s not like parts of US has more food-affecting bacteria than others.
Other nonsense in this thread: “if it smells ok it’s ok to eat” some bacteria can’t be detected by scent.
Rice, a common food outside of the US, has a particularly bad bacteria that can survive being cooked and should not be left out or even reheated more than once for example.
Well, bacteria actually care a lot about culture if you allow for this pun.
Like I said, the other commenters from the US say the US guidelines are extra strict so infection will be nearly impossible. This post is a pretty small sample, but from what I gather there is indeed a cultural difference. Not in the biology itself, but in what guidelines exist and how they are interpreted. We are of course talking about a private setting at home in this thread, not about restaurants or industrial kitchens.
Honestly, I feel your tone is a bit rude. Make your points, share tour thoughts, argue. But don’t act like everybody commenting here is stupid.
So as a person who’s been in that back area of a restaurant, we all know the danger zone is anything above 40F to 140F and the closer you are to that median temperature that median temperature the faster that bacteria multiplies, meat, vegetables, doesn’t matter, as long as the temperature’s right and there’s enough moisture there, they’ll breed like bacteria and there are bacteria that leaves toxins behind that will also make you sick.
So given that, I’ve always put stuff into the fridge as soon as were done eating generally following the two hour rule and it’s been sitting out for more than four hours without refrigeration, I’ll usually toss it.
90% Vegetarian. Chicken and Fish meat only. Canada.
I used to be a chef so I follow food safety guidelines with some wiggle room, since commerical kitchen standards are supposed to protect all kinds of people in a wide variety of circumstances, while I’m fairly healthy and in control of my kitchen/storage.
I don’t let food that’s supposed to be hot sit at room temperature for more than 2hrs max. I keep most starchy fruit and root veggies in loose, hanging bags and berries/greens/less starchy vegetables in the fridge. I usually only buy meat if I’m using it that day, only keep leftovers in the fridge for two-to-three days, and freeze anything else.
Super basic explanation: Bacteria are on anything not sterile or on fire. Most are harmless on their own but some produce shit that makes you sick. Like botulism is caused by the toxin the bacteria produce and not the bacteria itself, and it’s found on vegetables. The bacteria (if they’re not endospores) die with heat but the toxin remains. And with food production all mingled, bacteria from meats can be transferred to non-meat products, too. You can even get sick from raw flour.
Cooked foods have more available sugars and nutrients for bacteria to eat, plus warmth and moisture, so it’s a great environment for bacteria to break out of hibernation, make babies and poop toxins.
Leaving cooked starchy foods out in ideal bacteria party conditions isn’t great, and food poisoning isn’t always throwing up and shitting your guts out. Sometimes it’s a slight headache or a sore throat, and it can happen days or months after the fact. Ever had a 24 flu? Unexplained weird anxiety and a tummy ache that goes away after a day? Food poisoning happens to about 1/10 people worldwide every year.
But whatever, it’s about how much risk you want to take on.
Based on those symptoms I get food poisoning a few times every month :/
When I say some geese are white, it’s not the same as saying all white things are geese.
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Now I’m hungry :/
Anecdotal evidence rules! Everyone posting here is alive!
The estimated 420,000 folks who die annually from improper food and water handling refuse to post!!!
Great stuff!I didn’t real the post BC I’m tired but I would like to say some places i worked in NYS had food guidelines for vegetables, meats, etc., and for seafood it just said “GET REAL” in all caps and I always read it in a sarcastic voice in my head lol.
I habituality leave pizza on the counter for breakfast the next morning but that’s about the exception. Everything else I try to refrigerate before going to sleep for the night. I eat mostly veggie.
This is a thing pushed by American media. It’s a Boomer-era panic over summertime picnics and somehow mayonnaise causing potato salad to immediately after 30 minutes outside a refrigerator to become fatal if consumed.
It’s also the product of misunderstandings of buying meat at a supermarket, wrongly assuming that meat that is not refrigerated for more than 15 minutes will basically kill you.
Panicking about food poisoning is a moral panic about “bad parenting” and blaming people when it wasn’t widely known what causes food poisoning: not washing your filthy hands, cross-contaimination, and poor hygiene overall.
I’ve lived in West Africa and bought and cooked and safely eaten meat that had sat on a wooden plank lightly covered in flies before I got there to buy it. I survived. Mayonnaise will outlive humanity before it molds or goes bad at room temp.
We can agree that hot mayonaise is kinda gross though and a sign that the food was probably neglected in other ways too.
On the counter is fine for quite a while. I feel that putting warm food in the fridge will hurt the texture, so I always wait until it’s room temperature and usually a few hours longer before storing it.
So for the remainder of the day on the counter is fine in my book. Overnight it goes in the fridge.
Special case: Taco meat. I usually put the pan back in the (now cold) oven mostly to save space, and leave it there overnight. When I reheat taco meat I use enough heat to probably kill any bacteria anyway.
I’m sure you’ve heard this so many times before. It’s not necessarily the bacteria itself, but their waste products that put you at risk. I’m not sure what the salt content of taco meat is, and if your taco meat is dry or wet, but I do think you may be putting yourself at risk in this particular instance.
